From Elevator Pitch to Global Events - How Jocelyn Flanagan Built a World-Class Events Company - EP # 245

In this episode of the Diamond Effect Podcast, Maggie sits down with Jocelyn Flanagan, Founder and Executive Producer of e=mc² events, to talk about entrepreneurship, creativity, leadership, and what it really takes to build a company that lasts.

Jocelyn shares the story of how a chance encounter and a real elevator pitch helped launch her business, how she grew it into a globally recognized events company, and what she learned from navigating expansion, economic downturns, COVID, and the demands of leadership.

This conversation is full of practical wisdom for business owners who want to scale with intention, lead strong teams, and stay grounded through growth.

In this episode, we talk about:
- How Jocelyn got started in the events industry
- The real elevator pitch that helped land a major client
- What it takes to build trust and grow through word of mouth
- Expanding across Canada and adapting to different business cultures
- Creativity in event production and designing unforgettable experiences
- Leading collaborative teams and hiring the right people
- Navigating challenges, uncertainty, and economic shifts
- Lessons from COVID and how the business pivoted
- Work-life balance, burnout, and sustainable leadership
- Advice for entrepreneurs who are building and scaling

Guest Bio:
Jocelyn Flanagan is the visionary Founder and Executive Producer of e=mc² events, a global powerhouse recognized as one of the Top 50 event companies in the world. As the creative force behind Canada’s most iconic cultural milestones, including the Canadian Screen Awards, Canada’s Walk of Fame, and the Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame, Jocelyn is a true expert at choreographing "things that matter" on a grand scale.

With over 55 national and international awards to the company’s name, including Canadian Event Producer of the Year, Jocelyn combines a "can-do" attitude with a strategic wizardry that turns complex visions into life-changing experiences.

Beyond the red carpets, events, and broadcasts, she is deeply committed to the industry, mentoring youth, and is a proud member of the Musicounts Advisory Committee. A previous Woman of Inspiration honoree, Jocelyn, lives for the opportunity to prove that through the power of live experience, we don’t just produce events, we change lives.

Memorable takeaways:

Success often starts with saying yes to opportunities before you feel fully ready.
Collaboration is a competitive advantage.
Creativity is not just about ideas. It is about creating meaningful experiences.
Strong leadership means trusting your team, asking questions, and staying open.
Challenges are inevitable, but resourcefulness and resilience make the difference.
Sustainable success requires boundaries, support, and self-awareness.

Connect with Jocelyn - Website: https://emctwoevents.com 

Interview Timeline:
00:00 Introduction to Jocelyn Flanagan and e=mc² events
02:00 How Jocelyn discovered the events industry and got started
06:00 Landing the first clients and the elevator pitch story
12:00 Expanding across Canada and learning about cultural differences
18:00 Creativity in events and unforgettable production examples
24:00 Balancing client vision with expert guidance
29:00 Navigating event challenges and problem-solving under pressure
33:00 Economic downturns, diversification, and business resilience
37:00 COVID pivots, virtual events, and new opportunities
44:00 Leadership, hiring, and building a collaborative team
54:00 Managing stress, burnout, and work-life balance
01:04:00 Advice for entrepreneurs and final reflections

Transcript

Maggie Perotin: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to the next episode of Diamond Effect Podcast. I'm very excited because today I have a fabulous guest, Jocelyn Flanagan, the visionary founder and executive producer of e=mc² Events and Production. It's a global powerhouse, recognized as one of the top 50 events companies in the world.

Jocelyn has a wealth of entrepreneurial experience and building very successful business to share with us today, and I can't wait to learn from her. Welcome, Jocelyn. Thank you for being here with me, and if I could ask you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit of background on your business and how you get started, and then we'll dive right into the conversation.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Thank you for having me. It's, exciting to be here and wow. It is not an easy. Two minute answer about how it all started and how it all began. [00:01:00] But I think, one of my origin stories I tell people is that I have photos of me at the age of three pointing and organizing all of my friends and all of the social lives from our age of three.

So I didn't know at that time I could make a living out of it but here we are. So I, I have an interesting story. I actually started thinking I was going to be in the sports management side of things. And yet work on the Olympics and run the IOC. And then when I studied, went down that path and learned all about it, I realized that is not necessarily the route I wanna take, but I knew intrinsically that I was more corporate and more creative focused.

And at that time, I had been living overseas when I moved back to Calgary. I, I started looking for an experience, where I could lean into what is now called the event industry back in 2001 in Calgary. It was very, very young, this industry. In fact, I couldn't [00:02:00] find anything out about it.

Until I chose a job in a performing arts center, just because I knew events happened in there. And my first day on the job, I walked down a set of stairs and I saw a poster on the board. Saying that night was the first ever, annual general meeting of the Canadian Special Event Society.

So I canceled my plans for the night. I went into this dark room underground theater, and lo and behold, there were, 75 to a hundred people that were interested in this event world, be it buskers, be it entertainers, be it audio visual suppliers. But they, there was this world that existed that I was, you know, just about to meet.

And that was the start of my journey was just being in this underground theater, seeing all these people in this event world, and then seeking after the right people in the room to talk to.

And jumping forward several months. And really starting my own company with a few people.

At that time, we had, [00:03:00] there was three of us that decided to start a company. 

Maggie Perotin: That's, so I would love to explore that because you go to this event, right? And then I guess there were talk there about maybe finding jobs in the industry and so on, but you went right to starting your company, your business.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Much longer 

Maggie Perotin: the idea it and how it happened. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: It's a much longer story than that. But I sought after, one of the speakers that was at this event, I sought after her four months and said I really, I really want to understand what's happening in this industry. And, and finally she relented and said, yes come see me.

And she was, at a rehearsal and auditioned for a show. And so when I walked into this rehearsal and I saw. Drag queens and models and musicians, actors all in this room together. And I was in Calgary. Having just come from Spain and Toronto, [00:04:00] I was blown away that this world existed, let alone this could be a career.

And so I volunteered and I thought, I'm gonna volunteer at this event. And, again, it's a very long story, but the next year I was producing that show. 

Maggie Perotin: Okay. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: So it, I think, taking advantage of ever op ever opportunity and keeping my eyes open, as I said it, just with that experience, I 

I met, the right people and decided that it would be the right time to, surround myself with other experts. 'cause I certainly was not. And, find the right people and we decided that. What, let's try it. Okay. And when my mindset was in that situation, I thought I'll try it and we'll put on a couple of events and then I'll get a real job. And I'm 25 years later and I don't have a real job. This has become it. So I, yeah, I, it was a leap of faith for sure. Thinking I really start it and timing [00:05:00] was on our side and it, I surrounded myself, as I said, with smarter people than me. And we were able to really, take a hold of the, a very small industry in Calgary and then grow with the economy and grow with what the needs were. 

Maggie Perotin: And that was definitely my thought when I started my coaching business. So I had a real job in corporate or real career. I don't like to call it real, because entrepreneurship is also real. It's just a different way, right?

Yeah. Of being a professional and building something and and being fulfilled that way. But definitely I had that thought okay, I don't wanna be in corporate anymore. I wanna try to be my own boss and build a business. But the thought was, okay, let's try it. I've never run a business before, let alone in Canada.

So let's try and see what happens and then worst case scenario, just stay in my job, stay in my career. So it's funny how this part is very [00:06:00] similar for both of us. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Oh, 

Maggie Perotin: okay. You start a business, right? You have partners. How do you find your first client, or maybe not even like only the first, but maybe the biggest ones that kind of helped you start growing, how you secure those contracts.

When you are brand new you maybe new a little bit, or maybe your partners do, but you are just starting, you don't have a lot of proof of concept, right? 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. 

Maggie Perotin: How do you do that? 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Excellent question. Yeah. So my partner at the time, Ken he had volunteered for a charitable organization.

The Safe Haven Foundation for years. And so when we started that first call was to that. Foundation, Karen and John Sherbert and they said, yes, they'll, they will hire us. So we knew on day one that we had a client. And, shortly thereafter, we, we got a call from somebody else, it was actually Coca-Cola that called us, but it's one person knows one [00:07:00] person that that immediately, they, everybody talks to each other in. It worked out very well. And then we started, that was in July. In August I think it was. We decided to go to an event up in Edmonton and, we had the ultimate elevator pitch. We didn't know it was an elevator pitch at that time, but we ran into a man in the elevator.

Yeah. And, by the time he got to his floor, we had secured a meeting, to go and talk to an oil and gas company in Cal. I 

Maggie Perotin: love it. So you had a real elevator pitch. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. Without even knowing it.

Maggie Perotin: So do you remember what you said to that gentleman?

Did you know right away who that person was? Or you 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: just One of us. One of us did. I did not. And it was just a very quick, are are you him? And then it opened up and really it was just a very quick conversation of, what are you doing? How are you?

Let's and it was, yes, we've just started this company. And by the time we were done the ride, [00:08:00] he said, we're gonna meet. And we're gonna meet next week. So he gave us a card and we followed up and we were in his office the following, following, week. And talking about his Christmas, their Christmas event.

And this was a larger gas company in Calgary, which. In Calgary that's, certainly was the mark in 2001. Yeah. And so we had this meeting and he said, you're going produce our Christmas event, which was at large.

But you're going to work with all of the executive assistants 'cause they are the social committee 

That puts this event on. And he did warn us, he said, they're not going to like the fact that I'm bringing you in to do this. But they are going to like it when we're done.

And so that was exactly it. We went into that meeting, and of course nobody wanted us in that room. Except for our main client. Why are we gonna come in and take over? And the way that we just naturally operated, which continues to this day, is that. We're [00:09:00] highly collaborative. And I didn't know that even was a word, or I didn't know that I was doing anything. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: But I'm like, no, we are gonna take your ideas.

We're going to make your ideas come to life. We'll inject some energy, and then you guys get to show up the day of the event and take all the credit and enjoy yourself and not have to be worrying about it. And they were a little skeptical, but still to this day, 25 years later, I will get hugs when I go back to Calgary and I run into any of these ladies because they were thrilled at the fact that we did exactly that.

We respected everything they wanted to see from a vision. We took it up a little bit more and, we made their lives easy and made them look great. And that was a really great feeling. Oh yeah. And that one event turned into, just again, luck of the draw. But that client ended up merging with another and within the next six months, I was flying on [00:10:00] a corporate jet to New York to open this brand new merged company with a new name on the New York Stock Exchange with my business partner back in Calgary with 4,500 people. And we were doing a simulcast between the two locations as we rang the bell at the New York Stock Exchange.

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: So again, it was the best elevator pitch I've ever 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. And there's definitely, you can see, serendipity. Like where you were meant to do that, right? Yeah. Like coming into the elevator. Of course you're not expecting that the CEO of gas company will be there.

Yeah. And then somebody, you are one of your partners recognizing them and starting to chat up. I love it. Yeah. But I can see how collaborative you were and then how those poor executive assistants who had to like scramble before and organize those events at the end saw the value and you were able to convey that easily for them.

Because even in my corporate world, I remember, Christmas party and so on, the executive assistant, they were running like [00:11:00] chickens without their hand for, X amount of time to organize it. And then they couldn't enjoy themselves during the event. Because they were the ones like doing things.

And so once I can see the tremendous value that you brought, not only to the participants by elevating the event, but to the ladies who were usually tasked to organize. Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. And then that just helped us because that, that started to legit legitimize us as again showing what that value was.

And the corporate culture in Calgary hadn't gotten there yet. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: So word of mouth, ha, word of mouth happens very quickly. And then once we did that larger launch

and then subsequently an even bigger celebration of that company, it just word got out.

And at that point, the industry oil and gas industry in Calgary was gaining in, a lot of traction and and everybody was, looking for the next best thing. And events started to become very much of the culture of the Con [00:12:00] Calgary corporate. Really their sort of ecosystem.

Maggie Perotin: Beautiful. So then as your business grew and you started expanding, and when we had a chat before this recording, you told me you started expanding to other provinces of Canada and you realized that there were cultural differences in the provinces. So I would love to talk about that. What were those provinces and me, me being an immigrant, I haven't even visited all Canadian provinces just yet.

I've been to Quebec, to Ontario and quickly to bc, but that was like corporate, in and out. From office to office. So I would love to learn a little bit about that. And how did you navigate that as a company expanding across canada? 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: So the first experience we had with this was before we had even open offices in other parts of the country, but we were doing an event.

Across the country for a Calgary based client.

And the mandate that we had [00:13:00] was make this a five star event.

For everybody from Vancouver, Victoria, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto. Montreal. And we didn't go that as far east, but Sarnia, I think in Ontario. Anyway, there was lots of them.

And so we said we can't decide what's five star for Winnipeg. And we can't decide. So we innately knew that what works for white collar downtown Calgary

does not work for Edmonton. So it wasn't really until we started diving into these conversations where each event was very different because of.

The culture of those places. And what was considered five star in one place was not considered five star in another place from even what bands were bringing on to what sort of food and how [00:14:00] are we presenting that food and how loud is the music. And all of this stuff was just really eye-opening.

And so then when we were, when we did open an office, we started in Vancouver, so Calgary was our head office. Then, and then we opened an office in Vancouver, and then shortly thereafter we opened in Toronto.

And it became very clear for us that, in the Vancouver market, there's not a lot of head offices.

Okay. So when we're talking from a corporate. Construct there. They didn't have decision making control. They had to get, the decisions were made in Toronto, so they were always beholden to what was happening in the Toronto in the Toronto world. And from an industry standpoint, they did things a little bit differently and they weren't as collaborative.

And when we roll in and we're highly transparent and highly collaborative, it takes people, a little bit by surprise in that Vancouver market. But I think [00:15:00] really from the Vancouver side, it was probably just a smaller, smaller and I would say, but still quite very creative.

Just a different feel. When we opened in Toronto, it was interesting because, I would've thought I thought Toronto would just be way more creative in general. And, yeah. Bigger picture thinking. And what we realized that Calgary, which nobody thought of Calgary at that time.

It's an entrepreneurial city. It's ma like it is, it's highly creative because it's everybody there was, yeah. They started on their own and they were building on their own and and so we were tasked from the early days by clients who had their own private planes and could do anything they want in the world.

We were tasked to do something different than they'd ever seen.

And be more creative than they've ever seen. And so we were given really carte blanche to be creative and come up with ideas [00:16:00] that, that nobody had ever seen before.

When we started working in the Toronto market, we got a, this is how it's always been done, therefore change a little bit.

But no, this is how it's always been done. 

Maggie Perotin: And don't change it too much, 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: but don't change it too much. So when we went in there and all we tweaked one thing and it was, as if we've changed an entire, an entire events and it's wait a second, we've gotta push the envelope a little bit here.

But the corporate structure was just far more buttoned down. And less flexible to change and innovation versus where we started. And that I think that really helped us 

In both ways. And then also. Yeah. And just, from the industry, one of the reasons I I hadn't wanted to work in Toronto.

Because I had heard from industry that it was, yeah. It was this dog eat dog world. It was, not a really fun culture to be [00:17:00] in from an industry. And one of the very things when we started, on site at an event, our vendors on site, most of whom we didn't know were asking me specifically like, where am I from?

Why am I treating them so nicely? And, 

Maggie Perotin: oh, they were introduced to being treated, 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: were including me in these meetings. And are you hired to be the cheerleader for this? I'm like no. But when these vendors said it was multiple times at this event, they said, you are not from here.

Why? Why are you being so nice? 

Maggie Perotin: Interesting. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: That to me was this, wow, we've got an opportunity here.

To come in and just be our friendly collaborative transparent selves and actually, make a difference because the friendlier you are and the more transparent you are too, your vendors and your partners, the more they're going to do for you.

And we, just start elevating each other. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Part of that conversation was industry [00:18:00] culture, but also, corporate structure and restraints. It's just been really interesting. 

Maggie Perotin: Oh, yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And now we're, I shared with you earlier, I've, I recently sold the business 

Maggie Perotin: Yes.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And it's to a Quebec based organization. So now even. We're doing even more events in Montreal and Quebec than we've done before. And that's just a whole other world of cultural nuances, 

Maggie Perotin: uhhuh. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: But it's fascinating. 

Maggie Perotin: I'm sure you'll learn a lot about people and as you say their culture and how they do things.

So I have two follow up questions that come just as you were talking. So one, in terms of creativity, what would be one of your favorite, most creative events? And if you can paint it for me so I can see the picture. I love creative people and I really appreciate that. So one of the most creative events you are a ever done and kinda what came into it, I would love to know.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Oh, there's so [00:19:00] many. And it's really what people define as creativity, which is, for you. 

Maggie Perotin: So for you as an organizer. One of the most fun creative events 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: and I always go back to this one and it sort of the reason why I am still here today. I believe even more of this, show production.

So our company produces events of all sizes and scopes and scale and from intimate dinner parties where and I, this was years ago, but we're flying in rah from Paris and we're bringing, champagne in from somewhere else and we're doing a very high end dinner party. Those don't happen often, but they are fun when they happen to corporate AGMs and conferences and product launches and, company anniversaries and celebrations and fundraisers and, social events and then as well as show productions. So we do a lot of award shows and, larger [00:20:00] award shows, and now we're into producing, broadcast, pieces as well. So the, the show that I'll speak about was, 

Maggie Perotin: yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Was this one that I originally volunteered for that the next year I was producing.

And I, and this show I produced for eight years, and we, as a company produced for eight years, for AIDS Calgary. And it was the creativity came because we were working with 300 volunteer models, dancers, drag queens, costume designers, lighting designers, set designers, and we brought together this myriad of humans that wouldn't normally intersect and. Brought them all together as volunteers and oh, and our music designer and our audio producer, like we were just this for months. This really, this tight group, even though there was 300 of us [00:21:00] creating, a show really out of nothing other than imagination and heart and soul.

And that show changed. We were pushing envelopes all over the place. We were, again, trying things that, that hadn't been tried on on these stages before. And, just getting inspiration off of one another. So to me, those shows called Calgary Cares really, started me as a producer.

But to this day, they still feel like some of the most creative work that, that I have ever done. But creativity comes in so many ways. We opened in Vancouver, we were producing an event. That client from Toronto and Calgary chaired in Vancouver, and it was a fundraiser for a true patriot love foundation.

And we said, we're gonna turn a regularly static event that happens in Toronto into something very unique. And so we brainstormed and we came up with, we created [00:22:00] in the Vancouver Convention Center, a forward operating base, and we had the tents that they would actually have at a forward operating base.

We had tanks outside. We had all of this outside. We created a, buffets in this room with these tents from Kandahar. Wow. 

Maggie Perotin: And 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: we, people paid $25,000 a table to go to this event. And we had been served on metal trays, as you would at a mess hall. Metal trays. They were getting five star meals served by military, military, captains, dignitaries, putting this food onto their metal trays so that they can take it back to their seat.

Maggie Perotin: That's an experience. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And it was, camo chic. Was dress code. Okay. And so we went to every, army surplus store across the country and found all these things. So it, that to me is the creativity that our company that's just [00:23:00] one of the examples, but that's the way that we try to put things, tip them on their head, shake them up, and then 

Find random things that 

Maggie Perotin: I love how you took, upscale high-end event where people who, let's say, can afford those tables. They're used to a certain way of attending events and that can get boring, right? If you're going to the event, okay, food is great and band is great, but they all look the same.

Yeah. When you come to an event like that where the standard is still super high, but it's a mixture of the super high standard with the military, tough thing that creates an experience, I believe you can't forget, that you'll remember that event forever. That's, I love that.

So then second follow up question to that, so you mentioned when you were moving into Toronto and there was this corporate culture of we them this way, we don't wanna go out of our way. And you mentioned that you tried to push a bit [00:24:00] boundaries, right? You tried to get your clients to be a little bit more creative.

How did you do that? 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Oh, I think it's, it really little by little. And we, and it, proof is in the pudding as they say. And so when, you can push one little thing and and it makes a difference then you're really allowed to maybe make two sort of two things a little bit different.

Yeah. And also, what we really try to do is bring meaning to. Every event. And one of the things that was, seemed very prevalent in Toronto and I live in, I love Toronto. Don't get me wrong, that's where I'm based out of now from a business standpoint. But it, a lot of things used to be driven by celebrities.

So charity or charitable organizations would have celebrities at their event. 

Think that would draw the crowd to come to this event because of celebrities [00:25:00] there. What we tried to do early on in our, time in early days in Toronto was say, it's not about the celebrity. Let's actually create an event around your message and around your cause, not around the celebrity.

'cause people will go to the event and they'll say, oh, I went to event, an event that. Celebrity X was at not, I went to an event for this cause, and this cause was amazing. So 

Maggie Perotin: yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: So we really tried to change that mindset and certainly had some success with a number of our, charities there as well as even, as well as even corporations.

And there are times, it's funny, I just talked to another client, I'm like, this is the time when you actually need a celebrity, but times where you don't, because we can create a really unique experience. Yeah. That is very much driven by your key pause key messaging.

As I said, it just, it takes a little bit, it took a little bit of time.

Oh, I know what you mean [00:26:00] now. Okay. We can, yeah, we can try that. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. So then another question. What comes up to me, and I always, when I coach my clients, I. And try to teach them that and convey that, when we are experts in what we do, we need to be able to do both.

Listen to our clients, which what you did when you were creating the events in all those different provinces, not necessarily knowing what five star experience means to them, right? So you talk to them and listen and at the same time use your expertise to sometimes suggest something that the client might not think about because you have the experience, right?

Because you're the expert in what you do. So what do you think it's like the secret sauce of balancing both and not maybe go too much into one or the other, because that's not necessarily what benefits the client most. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. For us it always comes back to why are you doing this in the first place?

And really creating that event around, that why, [00:27:00] and then really proving. How each of these elements are going to are going to come back and support that reason. It is not ever about us. Sure there are some tricks maybe that we wanna try, but if it doesn't make sense for the client, we don't bring it into the fold.

Yeah. And likewise, when a client says, oh, we wanna try this, we've just seen this. And we say, sure, that's a neat trick, or that's a neat new technology, but it has no, there's no reason for that in this. It's not going to help. So we, as I said, the way that we work is so collaborative 

Collaboratively that we aren't, our job is to the client and the end goal. We can't push them outta their comfort zone too far. And sometimes we need to bring them back from, what they think is fantastic and actually scale it [00:28:00] back.

Yeah. And there's been times where we've actually, told a client that they don't need to do an event.

Because, which is counterintuitive because I'm I, want the business, but if it's not the right thing for the client to do 

Maggie Perotin: yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: We would guide them and say, you know what, this isn't, you shouldn't, we wouldn't suggest you do this. Or maybe it's not this year.

And then next year we can come back and actually do that kind of event. So I think just being open to any of those conversations certainly gains a lot of traction. And then. 

Maggie Perotin: Trust. Exactly. Exactly right. That's how you build trust because the client knows that you have their best interest at heart rather than, as you say, oh, I just want business at any cost, right?

And that's definitely not a, something that brings trust into the clients. Okay. So then let's talk a little bit about challenges, because organizing large scale projects, or even smaller, but as you say, there's a lot of moving parts, right? [00:29:00] Vendors and creation and employees in dealing with the client's, employees and so on.

Inevitably challenges will come. How would you deal with those challenges? If maybe you can share whatever some specific challenges? How did you navigate that? In some of the events, in whatever they were? The challenge? 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. There's event challenges, there's economic, global economic challenges.

There's all of these sort of challenges. I, what I try to tell my team is that we can't shy away from challenges and to spot one and to anticipate one.

And when it occurs, if we've done something wrong that's causing a challenge, we need to own it.

Own it, embrace it, and then take care of it.

So that's just one thing, like if Yeah. If we've done something that is causing a challenge, we need to learn from it, embrace it, and then carry on. Yeah. Gosh, there's 25 years of challenges, at events. [00:30:00] I think that. The key to success probably in any business, but is being very resourceful.

Yeah. And again, believing you're not the smartest person in the room or trying, don't be the smartest person in the room. Surround ourselves with people that are gonna help us come up with the solutions. But always know there is a solution somehow. Yes. I think that's important.

And I know I go back in history when I think of one where, we pitched for this is a very large event. And we pitched to do indoor Cirque de Soleil, and, see, it was brand like this again was 24, 24 years ago and

the silk performance and all the aerial performances.

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And the client had bought it. We were all excited about this really large piece performance we were going to do. And then the venue told us that, the venue was not sturdy enough. The roof was too old for us to rig anything.

The ceiling. [00:31:00] And what we couldn't do is obviously put 4,500 people in a room and have the roof collapse.

Maggie Perotin: Alright, 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: What are we going to do? Because we've already hired the circ artists, we've already done all of this stuff, so how are we going to solve this?

Maggie Perotin: And 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: that's when we get on phone calls with our industry partners globally our friends and our vendors and say, what can we do?

And it's there's a solution out of France where we can suspend artists off of helium balloons. Let's tr maybe that can work.

Talk to the search artists. They say we've never done it before. Okay, you've never done it, but could you?

Interesting. Maybe and then how do we turn that maybe into a 

Maggie Perotin: Yes.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Or we'll try it. So there was that piece of it. It's okay, we'll try this. And then we bring in the helium balloon from France. And it's the day before the rehearsal, and we figure out that the, the helium connector in France is not the same connector as in Canada, [00:32:00] as these things are not compatible.

So then, then it's okay, now who do we call? So finding all of these right people to call and on board and, and then just hope that it works. And it did, and it was beautiful. And, but these are just these, that's just one challenge, challenges like that happen all the time because we are pushing the boundaries and seeing what is possible. And we don't push the boundaries like that on every event. Don't get me wrong.

Yeah. And there are still challenges. Electricity goes out in the middle of an event, 

Maggie Perotin: hundred percent. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: What are you gonna do? You just prepare for the what ifs as we go.

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. And that's definitely, in my, even in my corporate world, my background was in facility management, and there was always something happening in the facility. And even any project I led or co-led, whether it was an IT project, whether it was a construction project,

the [00:33:00] moment something is complex and it lasts for a period of time, and there's a lot of moving parts, inevitably there will be things that happen that we don't have control over or we couldn't predict or whatever. So as you say, just, I love that, mindset of there's always a solution. As long as you believe that and you don't give up, you'll figure out something one way or the other.

Sometimes the solution is great. Sometimes it's maybe not ideal, it moves you forward. So then let's talk about with the business challenges, because of course you've run the business for many years, and there were economic ups and downs. How did you deal with those where maybe, things were great and then the economy changed and things weren't as great anymore?

How did you navigate that as the founder and c

 Jocelyn Flanagan: yeah. This is a bit of the learn as you go.

So the first time for us was definitely the 2008 global crisis. And 'cause all we knew from the [00:34:00] time we started until 2008 was a, that everything was on the growth and it was amazing and 

And, nothing could go wrong

we hear that, this is happening and Yeah. And was at that point, I'm, I will say, somewhat naive to what this fallout was going to be. And also interestingly, it affects, it affected organizations differently.

Yeah. So that first time the, our response was slow. We didn't anticipate. What was going to happen again, we were, that was in sep that was in 2008, but we were already working on projects for 2009. And we really didn't see much decline until sort of the end of 2009. 

Maggie Perotin: Okay. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And then 10.

And again, we were, I we were just a little [00:35:00] bit naive in, in terms what was happening. So at that point we did need to scale back significantly from on our team. And that did a, a reset, I think, I don't know the numbers now, but we might've been 20 some odd people going into it. And then we probably were.

10 to 13 on the other side of it. Which was really unfortunate. That was that was tough. A tough thing, but a lesson learned of like, how do we anticipate this a little bit more? And then, interesting we moved into the Vancouver market because of Vancouver Olympics were happening.

They were shielded by a, any economic downturn. Because the Olympics were going. Yeah. And when we opened in our Vancouver office, it was at the time where it was like the global economic downturn was finally hitting Vancouver. Okay. So just because again, they were somewhat shielded by it.

Or falsely shield by it. So that was just an interesting thing. [00:36:00] And then, same thing happened. We're following the Alberta, ups and downs of oil, markets. So what we were doing by opening in Vancouver on opening in Toronto was really a large, play of diversification so that all of our eggs were not in the basket of oil and gas, which I would say from 2001 until 2010 when we opened our Vancouver office, or moved into Vancouver shortly thereafter, we would've been 90, 85% was oil and gas.

We're now, now we've got our pie chart that has multiple, many colors on it. And we've been able to diversify. So no industry really is larger than probably seven, 8% so that we are able to shelter. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Certainly at this point all industries are up in the air in terms of what's happening from a global economic standpoint.

But it's more across the board than just 

Maggie Perotin: up and 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: down. 

Maggie Perotin: Oh, yeah. No that's great lesson and great strategy because as you say not [00:37:00] every industry gets hit the same way in the downturns. Some more than others. So as you diversify, you definitely are more balanced in how you can shelter yourself from downturns.

Thank you for sharing that lesson. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And then during COVID, when that hit, what we did is we got, we were faster to react

in terms of, we were very fast to furlough team members. Which was great. 'cause we ended up, that's a whole other conversation about what we did COVID, but we were very fast to react and then we were also able to bring people back 

On a, but what their choice, they could either, let go or come on a three day basis and then a, and then that came back to four days and then it finally came back to five days. But that was a much quicker reaction because we weren from 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: 10 years prior. 

Maggie Perotin: So let's talk about COVID just quickly, because that definitely for an event industry, in person, event [00:38:00] industry, that was, everybody was inside no events anymore. So how did you navigate that? How did you shift and pivot

through COVID? 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: That was an interesting one also. I, but in a good way.

Not obviously immediately. 'cause it was hard. Yeah. And I, I remember going up to my cottage and sitting in my reading chair staring out the window. And just people think they have all the answers and, all the predictions within a week of this happening. I'm like, nobody knows.

We have no idea.

Just need to see what happens. But we did an online event, within two months of COVID hitting.

And it was all, it was for the Canadian Screen Awards and everything. We just preproduced everything and sent it online. And it was challenging, but it was it was, it was interesting. And then, we started doing these online events as everybody was and learning, the technology, which was a tough learn. Also what we determined really early [00:39:00] on.

And it was great. My team actually determined this because, the media thought is why do they need us?

Why do clients need us if they can just work with a tech company to execute their event. And what became more and more clear is what we do as event producers and we still determine how we're storytelling, how we're creating these messages. We still need to create emotions. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: It, we're just now creating emotions two dimensionally, not three dimensionally. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: So we have to become more creative because now we're talking to everybody the same. Way. Whereas if you go to an event, we've talked so many times about the psychographics and what do people, everybody's different.

So some people are gonna walk into an event and think, oh my god, this food is amazing, or this looks incredible, or that sounds great. And I like this speaker. Oh no, I like this entertainer. So there's generally

Maggie Perotin: something, 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: yeah. [00:40:00] For everybody. And when it all ties together, somebody will walk out of an event and not know why they liked it.

But you would've liked it maybe for different reasons without even knowing it. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: So now when we start speaking two dimensionally, we need to get even more creative. Yeah. In terms of how, in fact, we are telling these stories and creating these messages and these videos. So it was really validating for our team.

To know what our value was outside of just picking what color linen was going on the table. So there's many learns that we had there. And then that also got us, much more, in tune with this broadcast space because then we were to, to studios create live, create content in television studios that then, then we would air or we would do, we would zoom people into studio and zoom performers into a [00:41:00] studio.

One of the events we did, within the first year was an event for thousands and thousands, 10,000 people, I think, across the country and in Chile. And it was a Christmas celebration and so we needed to create this platform, but then entertainers live, entertain. In each of these locations.

'cause it was a live event across multiple time zones. And if I wanted to walk into a different city's space, I could immerse myself into that space and watch what entertainer. 

Maggie Perotin: That's amazing. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: We were getting so, so we, so that just essentially became a multi simulcast broadcast. It just be called a virtual event.

So that really was great for us from a learning standpoint. So that when we came out of COVID we had a lot more skills 

Maggie Perotin: Yes. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And a lot of comfort of how we can integrate everything that we learned even [00:42:00] now. Everything that we learned from a Zoom connection and how to make that work we're still using. 'cause when we're at a live. Award show, we can now v very easily, technically bring in anybody from around the world and surprise them. And, we inducted a woman into Canada's walk of fame and she was over a hundred years old, so we had to go to her and, and it's, these things can work because we got trained that way.

Maggie Perotin: Yes. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And I think, there's, there was a lot of, again, more credibility on our industry.

Because people were not able to get together. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And especially, in the sports and entertainment world, which is live events. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: There was publicity and media around the fact that these weren't happening.

And that really, again, it became about the live event industry is floundering. [00:43:00] And that just shone a spotlight on, I said that just did the best thing for us. So I don't wanna make it sound like COVID was all rosy. However, there was a lot of good that came out of it.

Because of the fact that people learned and knew human connection is important. 

Maggie Perotin: Yes. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And there was the thought that hybrid events would take over the world and there'd be part in person and part, virtual. And while that happens, like while we do still, we still can stream live event, it certainly didn't take off the way a lot of people, thought it might.

And I'm quite happy for that, to be honest. I think, yeah. We have the tools. But I think still you. People are really an, not anxious. Very excited still for that human connection. 

Maggie Perotin: Oh, yeah. I think that nothing can replace being close and being, interacting with a human in person.[00:44:00] 

And as you say, at the same time, like the experience of COVID and figuring out the technology to still somehow be together, even though we can't be in person. Just enhance your skills and many other people's skills and give us that flexibility, that, that if there is a part of event that can happen at person, now you can merge and create something hybrid that it's even more elevated.

So I loved how again, took that. Unexpected black swan event and found an opportunity in it to still come out stronger on the other side with your team, the skillset, the business and swan. So I love that. So let's talk about team leadership, because I love what you say about, you need to be in the room where people are smarter than you, right?

You need to surround yourself with people who are experts in other areas where you're not, because that's the complimentary thing and that's how the business [00:45:00] grows. And I believe from my experience, that it takes a very confident and self-assured leader to do that. Because when we're not self-assured, when we have insecurities, then people tend to hire people who are either exactly the same or below their skillset level, and that never helps the business.

So I wanna talk about your philosophy of. Building high performing team and leading people in a way that they can be the best selves and ultimately the business benefits from it. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: I think this was a I know this was a lesson from my parents and certainly my dad, who was an entrepreneur and I never entered, I never thought of myself as an entrepreneur, but I just remember from the time I was young, he, if I didn't know the answer to a question, I couldn't make up an answer.

It was, don't say something if you don't know. If you don't know it, never be afraid to ask [00:46:00] questions. Was some I know I learned that from him is if you don't know the answer, don't pretend you know it, get the answer.

And that's something that I've told my, anytime we hire somebody on our team, it's so important, don't pretend.

Ask and you've got the and we have to empower people to ask questions. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And empower them to not have to know things. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Because that's where insecurities coming. 'cause if I don't know something but I, people think I should know this and I don't know it, then I like will immediately shut down.

And I certainly have, in, in various experiences. But, so that, that's a place for my that I lead from, I think is one. Be curious. Don't lead with any sort of ego

that isn't gonna help anybody. And just don't be afraid. So that's a key thing for us. [00:47:00] And you know it and there is no dumb questions now.

And when I say that, don't ask a client something that, that we should already know. Don't ask 'em the same question three times. Yeah. However, if you've got a question after a client meeting, you we're gonna hang on and you're gonna ask me what that meant or we're gonna ask. And, if I don't know the answer, I'm gonna tell a client, I'm gonna get back to you on that.

So just, and then make sure we get back to them. So that's one place that I lead from. And then what I wouldn't have it in me to be a micromanager, so I wasn't born that way. So I certainly lead from giving those around me, autonomy. Span authority and trust to do the right thing and or to find ways and ask the right questions. And I do believe in collab. I just fundamentally believe in collaboration and whether why, why that's true. I don't know, but I [00:48:00] just fundamentally believe that. And I just think that's the way I was brought up.

So I think that's really a key piece in terms of that leadership and that culture and allowing people to have a voice. And we have national meetings. One thing we've got, we have national meetings every Tuesday.

And we start off with great things. We start off with, let's, what's a great thing that, that you've got to share?

And that could be from an event that you just did, from an experience of, seeing this, your flowers are blooming or you just went, concerted your life, whatever it is. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And that ended so that we did, we actually stopped that for a couple of meetings. 'cause, it was like, oh, maybe that's taking too long, maybe that's not working.

And immediately I sh there was a shift in how people were responding they said, no, we can't leave that out. That's an important thing that Yeah. People wanna share and we wanna learn and we wanna be [00:49:00] happy. And, if you don't have anything great to say you, you pass, but you pass.

And. It just has become a very cool social part of our company because we're getting to know people on a different level and it just really pumps up where we're starting our meetings. Then from Yeah, we're starting to place a positivity 

Maggie Perotin: a hundred percent. And that's, for me, that's also like showcase the culture of the company. And very often those are the little things, and as you say, if you don't do them, you see a big shift in how people in the energy or how people respond. So I love that. So in terms of do you have any tips or any principles that you've learned in hiring, the best people or spotting out of the candidates that you have and that that you, interview, spotting that the right people for the role, for the company?

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah, that's a [00:50:00] tough one.

But it, it's in all the business books, hire slow, fire Fast. Yeah. And I, I think in many ways that, that's true and

we, for the hiring, there are some of those key pieces and it's questions that are going to lead to are, can these people be flexible?

'cause everything we do the best ideas sometimes come at the 11th hour and we all need to be like, oh yeah, that's way, be, that's way better. So being, being flexible, being, the detailed thinking and all of those things. But we. We get a, really good reading off of people and it's we lead a lot by intuition as well.

Maggie Perotin: I 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: love that. 

And never is anybody hired after one interview by one, by one person or two people. So we do a lot of various, not a lot, it's not arduous, but conversations saying, this [00:51:00] team, we want you to have a conversation with this group of people. This group of people. And everyone in our company comes at things, differently. 'cause we all have our own experiences. So while it doesn't become, as I said, too cumbersome, it becomes a, again, a more of a collaborative. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And when we haven't done that, it actually hasn't worked out.

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Very well. And one of you say about spotting people or having interviews, I did have a conversation with, someone asked me, can you talk to my daughter? 'cause she's not sure what she wants to do and she loves music and she does this and that. And it was during COVID and five minutes after a meeting with her, I like, you don't know much about our industry, but your, our industry I think needs you.

And then I introduced her to, yeah. A bunch of other people. And I said I don't know, but I've got this feeling and five years later, here we are. And it's, just this great hire. So 

Maggie Perotin: yeah, 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: There's a lot of things [00:52:00] when people ask me, how do I get into this industry?

Study this, do this, volunteer. We have lots of people on our team that have volunteered. And that's important and

come on site and see if you actually like what we do, because people think that it's glamorous and it's not glamorous. 

Maggie Perotin: 99% of the time it's not, and then 1% of the time it's

 Jocelyn Flanagan: get a feel for what we actually do. And then see if if you like it and if and vice versa. So yeah. There's no real one thing that's going to stand out. Yeah. But it, we are a, our industry is full of unique, we're unique individuals.

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Work hard, we play hard. We laugh lots and we, when in stressful times we support each other, so yeah. That's really key. So it does take a certain personality to do all of those things. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely deeply resonate with your lessons and your experience, because that's been my experience [00:53:00] as well in terms of hiring.

Anytime I desperate hired, because we got ourselves in a situation where we didn't, hire her early enough and so on, never worked out. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. 

Maggie Perotin: Anytime I went against my intuition, meaning, maybe the candidate was great and the resume was great, and even like the interviews, but there was something that I didn't dig deep enough or we didn't discuss because we also collaboratively hired.

Never worked out. And as you say, like those multiple touch points, and it doesn't have to be too complicated. It doesn't have to be too artes just allows you to get to know the person a little bit more. Because anybody can be like proper and put Yeah. Show once. But if they have to do it two or three times, it's a little bit different.

And then when other people see it, they have a perspective that you don't have. And then when you can talk about it, you will get deeper into a candidate just by conversation with people [00:54:00] who also interviewed or exactly. The candidate. So a hundred percent agree. Like whenever we weren't rushing and listening to our intuition and following our process, that's the best times when we hire the best candidates.

When we went off script that way, like most of the time it didn't work. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit, if you don't mind talking about, how you navigated the demands of being the CEO of a very dynamic company, growing and through, challenges with the economy, but also challenges with the, just with running the business and things that happen, like more personally what worked for you, maybe some lessons that you've learned to not burn out or not, start hating what you do because you've gotten too stressed about it, or whatever the case may be.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: [00:55:00] That's an excellent question. And when I think the first time I went to a conference and I. Heard people talking and they were so stressed and they were just sounded miserable. And I'm like, I I got myself into the wrong business. This is not a world where I wanna play in if this is in 10 years. If I'm gonna be miserable like this, I just, I can't be. And so I don't know if it was, again, if I did this intentionally or if it's just part of who I am, but I do believe that, the, my sort of group, more group mentality helped. There are many people and many people that I adore and love and do amazing things that have named their companies after themselves.

And or made their company so that if it's not them [00:56:00] in the center

or the one leading, then there's no value in their organization. And again, I didn't do this because I knew any better. Our name came from my original business partner. He came, he had the name. I'm like, that sounds like a great name.

And therefore that was our name. So I can't take any credit for it. I didn't have a lot of thought into it. But what I did know was that I didn't want a company named after myself. And, and I'm glad that I didn't. And so what really, what that, and the, and just the nature by which I do things is, it isn't about, it isn't about me.

I've been able to, put other people in the right spot. And yes, the first several years I was definitely leading a lot of the projects bringing team members in and also realizing my own strengths at that time.

As I went, I really didn't know what they were.

It [00:57:00] was, a trick of all trades and do a bit of everything. And then I do remember when we had a very high profile client and I said, I'm not your lead on this event. And he said, oh, yes you are. I said, no, I'm not. I can't be, and you actually don't want me because what this event is, I'm not the best at it.

This person's gonna be way better at this.

Fortunately it was, okay, I trust you. And that was a way I could offload. Projects by not having to be that face, but being the support behind the team. And that's really where I probably learned the art of just giving people the autonomy 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And the empowerment to to do that. So that's, I've talked to good friends of mine that have been in the business, and they, you know what? They can't take a holiday. I can take a holiday, my husband will say, I don't take ma as many as I should, [00:58:00] but now, now because I don't need to be everywhere.

I can't be everywhere. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Also, take a step back and help build the vision. 'cause I'm not, I, and I've ebbed and flowed, there's, I'm now producing events. I love producing shows. More in that wheelhouse.

But there was a time when I had stopped doing that so I could run the business and I woke up one morning and I thought, I need to do something creative on the side. Because I'm being creative and then realized, no, I own a creative company. I should probably, I don't need a side gig, I can actually be in it.

It s and flows in terms of the in and out, but, so again, it's surrounding myself with the right people has helped from that in the business side of things. When it comes to financial and global challenges and all of that stuff, I. Historically played a lot of squash in my certainly five years, or, when I moved back to Canada and started [00:59:00] my, started the company, I was playing a lot of squash. And let me tell you that I played I sure four to five days a week during 2008, nine, and 10. That was my, it was my savior. I think playing squash and hitting a ball as hard as you can and running around a room, honestly, that was a very good tool 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah.

To 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: keep me sane. So that was something that, you know, and I have amazing friends and I have amazing family, and I have very 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Very good friends and a supportive family. And I leaned on them a lot.

When things weren't going well and yeah. So I, I'm lucky that way that,

And supportive team members. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's all I can say that because it, it definitely has been riddled with stress throughout the years. And coming back from COVID, I think was probably the, I'm gonna [01:00:00] say the most stressful.

And I got, there was one summer where I thought, I absolutely hate my job.

And if this were what producing events were like for me, always, I would never would've lasted 25 years like there. If this is how people normally feel

this is, this would be a horrible place to be. Yeah. Because I, I took things very personally. It was like things were changing, prices were skyrocketing, their budgets weren't high enough things, it was hard to navigate vendors after, after COVID. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. So many vendors had been laid off. People were coming back, they were untrained. They didn't know what they were doing. The prices had skyrocketed. So it was really hard and I thought, this is atrocious. And this is, and I hate this. Fortunately again, I wasn't, I leaned on other people and figured out that I wasn't the only one feeling this way. And, but it was a very hard time. Yeah. COVID, it was [01:01:00] just, we had learned this nice little bubble inside, and then when it came back, it the industry needed to relearn a lot of things. And anyway, so that, that was challenging and balancing books is challenging. We're in a very cyclical world and 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: We learned throughout the years a lot of processes and things that are, keep us going today. Yeah. So that's, that's a whole other lesson. It's a whole other podcast. 

Maggie Perotin: Podcast, 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: really more of my office manager and account accounting team would know more about, but 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: But yeah, it's not flying blindly and think everything's gonna be okay. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: But yeah, I think on the personal it, it is definitely. Important to take care of ourselves as humans, not just as in the business. And find those ways, be it squash be it vacation, and be it, we're in this world where we're moving way too [01:02:00] fast and Yeah.

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: I do think even out of COVID, I think actually work life balance is worse than it's ever been because because people are re responding and, myself included, right? Where we, because we don't need to meet in person to do Yeah. 

Maggie Perotin: We could not work nonstop. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: We're working nonstop. And whereas before, like at least I had 20 minutes break in between meetings.

'cause I had to go across, at least across the street to go to a meeting. 

Now we don't have that. The conversation about work-life balance is probably even more important than it was before, and myself included.

Anyway, those are some of the ways that I manage it and I don't always manage it well.

Because I don't have a squash court at the ready all the time. 

Maggie Perotin: Maybe it's time to look for another sport. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah, 

Maggie Perotin: I agree with you. I don't think any of us has a right all the time, but at least being self-aware, when you get to the point [01:03:00] where it's oh, there's signs where, yeah, I'm starting to maybe not like my job or my business or I feel demotivated to not maybe blame the business, but think about, okay, what is it that I need as a human to then feel as excited about my business or about what I do that I used to.

And that might be a vacation or just a good workout or our social network, our family, the loved ones, because. I definitely feel it. If I don't spend enough quality time with my family, I feel more drained. So I have to have that in order to feel energized and good, even though I love what I do in business.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. And I, over the year I've been involved in entrepreneur organization. And I loved my, like I really loved, I think I was in that for 10 years. I loved it. I have a, personal coach now that I work with also. And as much as I think I don't [01:04:00] have time for this, when again, in the calls, I come out the other side really energized and 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And that was last January. I was just in a fog and I'm like, okay, I need to get outta this fog and I need a coach to help me get out of this fog 'cause. I need to talk my way through it. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: And so I'm a big believer in not trying to solve your own problems by yourself.

'cause 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. It 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: doesn't work that way. 

Maggie Perotin: As Einstein said, we can't solve the problems with the thinking that created them.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Exactly. Yeah. 

Maggie Perotin: Just as we are finishing up, I would love to know, what advice would you have for somebody who's early in their business and they're just starting to build it?

Maybe they're at the point where they're starting to scale. What would be some nuggets of wisdom that you would have for them? 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Take a deep dive into the accounting side of things. And just making sure you're getting the right [01:05:00] guidance and how and it's not too late to change if you know you, you didn't.

So Yeah. And that's a, we didn't start with the right guidance and the right knowledge. So that was something that we had to then, retrace and and and solve. So that's something that is just really key. Make sure that you've got the right guidance and the right knowledge there.

The other thing is I'm gonna say, and I've talked to other people just starting their business, be prepared for success

because people can go into, start a business or just at the beginning and you're prepared for failure.

But it's the success that you actually need to be prepared for.

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: It's hard to keep up when that success happens. So definitely be prepared for it, and plan for it.

So that's, I think that, that's one piece of guidance that, that I think is important. And then, don't normalize success. And [01:06:00] that's a challenge that I have to talk to myself all the time.

'cause I I normalize it, and then that means I'm not giving enough congratulations to my team or not.

I okay, we did this great moving on now I'm onto the next thing. Now I'm onto the next thing. And, not everybody works that way. And I think taking that breath in between 

Those moments of success and Yeah. Really reflecting on them and certainly. Understanding how others around you want to reflect as well.

That was a big learn for me. It's like the love languages, but it's yeah, it is, it's very similar. Know your people.

And then the other thing is also set boundaries for your own

your own self and

this is where, if, and I tell this to my team, if a client is texting us or emailing us at 10 o'clock at night and I'm awake and I'm working, doesn't mean that I have to respond to that because the minute I respond at 10 [01:07:00] o'clock at night, today and tomorrow, if I don't respond at 10 o'clock at night on Wednesday, that client's gonna think I'm not, I don't care and I'm not responsive.

So set some boundaries there so that we're not. Always seemingly available because you aren't always available and nor should you be always available. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Yeah. And that's something that's really important and that's a, you're setting a precedent the minute you do it. So just understand

Maggie Perotin: hundred percent.

 Jocelyn Flanagan: I think those are some pretty big things just to and as I've said from the beginning, just surround yourself with really smart people. 

Maggie Perotin: Yeah. I love those are beautiful lessons. And then, nugget to wisdom them. Is there anything else before we finish, is there anything else that maybe we didn't talk about that you wanna share that you think would be, valuable for the listeners?

 Jocelyn Flanagan: I don't think so. I think this was really, yeah, this was fun. 

Maggie Perotin: That's I en I enjoyed it [01:08:00] thoroughly. I'm so glad you agreed to, do this with me. So is there a place that people can connect with you or, check out the company if they wanna do a big event? 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Sure. Yeah, our website EMC two events.com.

And I'm jocelyn@emctwoevents.com, so I'm happy to talk to anybody. 

Maggie Perotin: Beautiful. We will link that in the show notes. Again, thank you so much, Jocelyn. That was an amazing interview. I learned so much and it was a pleasure having you. Thank you so much. 

 Jocelyn Flanagan: Great. Thank you.

Bye-Bye.